Circling The Drain

Unknown: I had to kill Phil's
ego one time.

This we had an ego. This was

a small one, but he he had Jack
Kemp on one time. And when he

was running with Bob Dole, and I
was on the phone while they're

trying to get jack, and they go,
now, Jack, this is the Phil

Valentine show. It's nationwide,
and all sudden, here Jack Kemp

go, and who is it? I said, Phil,
Valentine. Phil, who Valentine?

Like Valentine's Day? And where
he's out of well, he's pretty

much national, okay, later on in
the interview, as he's talking

to Phil, all of a sudden, when
Phil asked him a question. Jack,

of course, starts the answer,
Well, Phil, it's like you say on

your show. And he said, I listen
to you dailies, and love the

show. Oh, my God.

Welcome to a podcast about music
and entertainment before it all

goes down the disposal. This is
circling the drain.

Welcome back to circling the
drain, the podcast that wants to

keep the entertainment the music
world, keep it from going down

the garbage disposal as we say,
Hi, my name is John E Bozeman,

but you know me better as Johnny
B, along with Jay Harper, my co

host. Hey, Johnny B, how you
doing my brother?

Hey, always doing great. What
I'm with you

and brother, Chris. Chris,

yes, I'm Chris. I'll be brother
Chris. Brother Chris, I'll be

brother Chris slash Jim.

Jim McCarthy, no man, you're
just so used to having producers

named Chris. I am. That's

where it came from. Chris,
whatever you want me to be.

Yeah. Brother Jim McCarthy here,
dude, that's happened to me too.

Just call me Joe Biden.

But anyway, welcome to circling
the drain podcast where we talk

about everything entertainment,
everything music. But today we

wanted to talk about some of our
favorite stories. And I know you

guys will be interested in it
too, because radio is a very

interesting business.

We do that in lieu of the pay
yes experiences,

and it's getting more
interesting, but for totally

different reasons.

Oh, yeah, that's the truth. It's
become, well, it's become so

corporate. It used to be. I
remember the days in radio. It

was not unlikely, like for
myself. I'll talk about myself

where I might have, you know, a
cigarette while I'm on the air

with all the equipment there
absolutely have a cigarette,

maybe a pizza over here. You
know, there might be a girl in

the room and she may have
clothes or may not, right? Those

were the days. I mean, that was
what radio was like back in

those days. I it was pretty

wild. It was as close to being a
rock star as one could possibly

get without the money, that's
right,

and the glory,

you know? And it was back when
being a jock on the air was kind

of like a dance, a ballet. I
mean, you had all this different

gear that you no longer use. You
had turntables going cart

machine. You had cart machines.
And I know people, there are

those. I will mention cart
machines to folks, and they,

they got the puzzled look, those
same eight track, yeah. I mean,

that's what people can relate
to. It's kind of like a one

track, eight track, exactly. You
know, it's what a little but

anyway, you'd have several of
those, you'd have a reel to

reel, perhaps, going and keeping
all of that in sync. And it was,

it was such a talent, you know,
and you had a, you know, what?

The console in front of you? Of
course, today it's all slide

pods, but back in the day, yeah,
income, so, yeah, now everything

is in a computer, yes, and all
you do is key the mic and the

computer does everything else.
And in some respects, it's kind

of cool. But yes, I do miss the
the dance, if you will.

And we also had the Q burn too.
Remember that you'd be playing

vinyl, and had been played so
much that at the front of it

you'd start the record,

that'd be get to where you would
hear those songs on other

stations. Yes, and it didn't
sound right because it didn't

have the Cuber Exactly, exactly,

but where's the Q burn at man,
wait a minute. It was very

interesting too. There was an
artist, Deborah Allen, we both.

She's an artist here in
Nashville, and she had a big hit

called baby. I

lied. 1983 Yes. Got to number
four. Yes, it

did. And it crossed over to see
their radio guy. But it also

crossed over to pop too. And I
took a chance on the record and

I got. But because we had to
answer to Nashville, I was

working in Birmingham at the
time, and I had to answer to

Nashville, and they were really
on me. They said, Why are you

going with this record? She's
unknown, really. And I said, I'm

telling you, this record is
going to be hit. And thank God

it was, because otherwise,
that's what really been hot

water.

She was on RCA Records at the
time. That certainly helped.

When she was gorgeous. Oh, that
too. And a fine songwriter. I

mean, a great singer, right? She
was married to Ray Van Hoy at

the time. She was also a fine
songwriter, yeah, so you know,

she had some street cred,
certainly from a songwriter,

from a musician standpoint, yes,
she did the radio people, a lot

of radio people didn't know who
she was, or didn't think she was

going to go anywhere, but I did.
And what really drove me crazy

about that record was that at
the end, as it's fading out, she

hits this great high note. And I
would, I would not talk until

she hit that high note. I mean,
I would even crank up the volume

because I thought, how stupid.
Why did they not, you know? Why

did they not leave, leave that
in there, then fade out after

that. But anyway, that's radio
for you. Yeah,

all those fun things,

yeah. I mean, I remember, you
know, Deborah Allen came to the

station I was working at at the
time with her, with her RCA rep.

Jack Weston was the RCA guy. I
always wonder what happened to

Jack, but he was a good dude
anyway, yeah, you know, they

came we, you know, we did the
lunch thing and all that. And,

you know, she, she's out there
again now. She just released new

stuff. Oh yeah, yeah. And she's
got a big show coming up in

Franklin,

yeah, she does, which is right
here in our Yeah, backyard, so

to speak, Franklin theater, I
think,

yeah, yeah, correct. So she's
still out there doing her thing.

Yeah,

she's really good. But I just
remember stuff like that. I also

remember, I don't know if you
guys ever went through this or

not, but I'm on the air. It was
in Nashville, and I was doing

the midday show, and it was
Steve Warner had just come out,

and I think he had a song. I
think it was, I forget the song

now, but anyway, I didn't know a
lot about Steve Warner, and all

of a sudden, I'm told by the
music director, oh, my God,

you're supposed to do an
interview with Steve Warner. And

I said, really? I said, when she
goes, now I know nothing about

Steve Warner, and she goes,
Well, we're just gonna have to

wing it. And I got to meet Steve
after it's very interesting,

because I've met more country
artists after doing talk radio

than I did music radio. And I
met Steve, and I said, Man, I

don't and he didn't remember the
interview, but I said I always

felt embarrassed because I said
I didn't know a lot about you.

The only thing I knew was that
he had he shared a birthday with

Barbara Mandrell, which is
Christmas day. That's right,

Christmas. And so I went with
that and started there, and just

let him kind

of Steve's the kind of guy, you
know, you say, Hey, how you

doing? And he'll talk for 30
minutes. Oh, he was great, yeah.

I mean, I first met him when I
was working radio, and he played

a nightclub in town, and at the
time, I mean, you know, he was

on RCA, and he had some hits,
lonely women make good lovers,

so, yeah, Midnight fire and
which were all pretty good

tunes, but didn't really know
much about him either. But then

realized, when I saw him in
concert for the first time that

he could just pick the hell out
of a guitar. He's just a

fantastic guitarist. And I
remember, after the she was

standing at the bar, and I went
up, you know, introduced myself

with so and so radio, man, I
didn't realize, God, what a

great guitar player you are.
Blah, blah, blah. Well, it was

years, a few years later, when I
worked for MCA, and he was on

MCA at the at that time, yeah,
and he remembered me, either

that or he was real good BS or,
you know, I had mentioned Hey

man, you know, I saw you at this
bar, and he said he remembered

me, but Yeah, Steve got to be
one of those guys that that I

kind of got to know a bit during
the MCA Records days. And you're

right. I mean, not a and what's
so disgusting. I mean, Steve's

like 70 now or so, and he still
looks like he's 12. Yeah, he

does. He's got, he's always been
young, young looking. You know,

when

you're right about his playing.
It was very interesting, because

when I when I worked with Phil
Valentine on talk radio, it was

around Christmas, and I was
playing Christmas bumpers, and I

was playing one by Steve, and to
me, and I said it on the air. I

said, Man, this hauntingly
sounds like Chet Atkins, who had

passed away by that time, Steve
called into the show and he

said, Wow. He said, I. Was
sitting in traffic, and he said,

I really shuttered, because when
Johnny said that, it reminded

him of Chet Atkins. He said,
When I played that song in the

studio, I'm playing a Chet
Atkins. I'm playing chet's

guitar in that on that tune. And
so that was pretty

wild, yeah. I mean, Chet Atkins
was a mentor of Warner's, and I

think produced some of Steve
stuff when he was on our scene.

Yeah,

he did. And you're talking about
memory, one of the best people

I've ever talked to would talk
about a great memory, believe it

or not, was Donald Trump Jr. He
was calling in to do an

interview with Phil. It wasn't
his first, but it'd been a

couple of years, and I'm
answering the hotline, and I get

on it, and he said, Johnny B How
you doing? That's cool. And I

went, Man, how do you remember
me? And he goes, I remember

everything. He said. I remember
what we talked about last time,

and he told me. And I went, my
gosh, this guy is phenomenal. So

you talk about a memory that
dude that was impressive. I've

never, I've never met anybody
like that, because I've heard a

lot of BS with talk radio. In
fact, I felt bad because I I had

to kill Phil's ego one time.

This way on an ego. This was

small one, but he he had Jack
Kemp on one time, and when he

was running with Bob Dole, and I
was on the phone while they're

trying to get Jack. And this is
how it went. On the phone, you

know, Jack, they're talking to
Jack, and they go, now, Jack,

this is the Phil Valentine show.
It's nationwide, and, you know

they this is when we were
sending all sudden. Here Jack

Kemp go. And who is it? I said,
Phil Valentine. Phil, who

Valentine? Like Valentine's Day?
And where he's out of, well,

he's pretty much national, okay,
later on in the interview, as

he's talking to Phil, all of a
sudden, when Phil asked him a

question, Jack, of course,
starts the answer, Well, Phil,

it's like you say on your show.
And he said, I listen to you

daily. He said, love the show.
Oh, my God. I hate,

man, happened to me with Alan
thick? Really? Remember Alan? I

remember America's dad, yes. So
he, actually, he wasn't doing an

interview with the radio
station. It was in Las Vegas,

and he, he came in to record
commercials for a timeshare

because he was the guy they
hired as the spokesperson. And

there was a whole bunch of other
actors, if you will, that came

into the station and were trying
to play like the cast. So they

wanted us to set up our talk
studio so they could all be

around it and record the
commercial. I'm like, no

production studio guys. This is
how we work. And they were so

Prima Donna, I mean, they were
like, Well, I'm not sure how we

can really get into character.
I'm like, Dude, it's a

commercial for a flipping time
shift. And Alan thick is just

like, Guys, let's just get, you
know, he's just up next to my

mic, and he was like, let's just
get, Let's hammer it out. We'll

get it. We'll get it taken care
of. So anyway, we get it done.

All big hullabaloo and
everything, all like, I've never

had to cater to people's egos,
not his. Yeah, there's like,

Yeah, nobody knows who you guys
are, you know. So they all

leave. He had to come back and
do some pickups. And I only

maybe worked for them. Worked
with him for maybe 45 minutes

during that day. So you know, he
was coming in again maybe a

month later, and I get a call
from the downstairs, like, you

know, your guest is here. Okay,
let me go down and get him, and

I, you know, circle around, open
a door, and I'm like, Hey, Mr.

Thick. He's like, hey Jim. I'm
like, Oh, wow. Oh, my good on

you, man. You remembered me, and
a lot of what a great guy. See,

I love people, like, they gotta
do. It restores your faith in

humanity.

Now, see, I'm bad because I I'm
bad with Nate. Yeah,

you don't say.

I think that's maybe why I lost
my last gig, the new PD, you

know when you've been up for a
long time? Yeah, it was one of

those mornings when I didn't get
enough sleep the night before,

which is about every morning,
right? Yeah, and

Paul is guy's name, real nice.
Yes, he is really nice guy. And

I, you know, I felt bad for him.
He had to fire me because I

don't think he really felt good
about doing it. But anyway, I

Yeah, firing legends. I see him
one more,

and I think I called him Dave.
Hey, Dave. Dave, Paul, you gotta

forgive me.

Oh, speaking of Miss. Miss, like
missing someone's name. This is

actually a fair story, so I
can't I'm thinking of who the

guy was. So he comes into the
studio and it. Was Colin Hay.

Oh, yeah, from work. Men at
Work. Men at Work. Yeah. And

we're gonna have him on another
show that we're producing on the

side, live here at one time. I
guess so. Yeah, I guess so. So

he comes in and I'm on the phone
with my wife, and I'm like, Hey,

I gotta let you go. We're we're
about to do this podcast with

the guest is here. She's like,
Oh, who is it? I'm like, oh,

it's Colin Ray. And he's sitting
right across from and I'm going,

oh, and I kind of look at him,
he starts laughing, like, kind

of you see his shoulders moving,
and I'm like, did I totally oh

my gosh, you're calling Hey. I
said, Come on, man, honest

mistake here. I mean, I knew
kind of who you were. I know. Oh

my gosh. Let me shut up. Let me
get the shoe out of my mouth.

Gosh,

oh man, it's tough. Hey, you
know it just is, it's just is.

But, yeah, there's been a lot of
great radio stories. I think

the, I think the the funniest
one I can remember involves my

father and kind of me too, in a
roundabout way, because at the

time I was it was during my sin
in day, there were a couple of

us at the station that were
imbibing, you know, we, we

smoked the devil's lettuce at
the time, and one of us was kind

of stupid when it came to it. He
didn't use good common sense.

But I was at family dinner one
time, and it was a Sunday, and

dad had a habit on Sundays of
not ever getting out of, you

know, like he'd always be
wearing the robe and his

pajamas, and we're around the
dinner table, and all of a

sudden the phone rings, and it's
a radio station, and the buddy

of mine that's jocking that day
had the great idea that, man,

I'll just nobody's here. I'll
just smoke a joint while I'm on

the air. So to light the joint,
he uses a match, and the match

he after he lit the joint, he
throws the match in the waste

paper basket, which is
underneath the console. The

match is not out. He thinks it
is, but it's not, and probably

in the shape he's in, he doesn't
notice that it's smoldering.

It's starting to smoke. The fire
got so bad that it fried the

wires on the board knock the
station off the air. Oh, fun.

And so we're we're all eating
dinner, and dad gets this, gets

the news, and then he tells
everybody what's happened, and

the whole family's eyes look at
me like I did it, and I'm

thinking, I wasn't there. I was
right here. For once, it wasn't

me, but they and even made a
book. This the program director,

whose name was Don Keith, great
guy. He has been really

successful with books. In fact,
one of his novels became a movie

and starred Gerard Butler,
really, but, yeah, the guy, but

he wrote a great book about
radio called Wizard of the wind.

And in fact, I get a, I'm, uh, I
get a dedication amongst

hundreds of other radio people
cool, which made me feel, in

fact, my name was right next to
Jerry houses. And wow, yeah,

that made me feel really good.
It's a big deal, man. But don

tells the story in there, kind
of, and he said, he said he

never forgot the image of my
father pulling up in the back

lot, getting out of the car with
his robe and pajamas, running up

to the station. And of course,
that guy ended up getting

fired. Yeah, I would imagine.
So, I mean, how long did it take

to get back on the other that's
a major, that's a major. I

forget, it took a while. Yeah,
it took a while. And,

yeah, that was probably back in
the days when you couldn't just

shift everything over to a
production studio and operate

out. Well, I think they may
have, yeah, they may have done

that so, but, you know, talking
about the radio. So, you know,

you go way back in radio, when
stations were mostly Mom and Pop

owned, yes, before all of the,
you know, corporate conglomerate

stuff, and those people, you
know, like your father, you you

talked in another podcast about
having personal relationships

with Jimmy Dean and Ron Clark
and all. Oh, yeah, you know,

back then those Mom and Pop
owners, they had those

relationships with with artists
and stuff. They would stay over

at their houses and this kind of
thing. Uh. A guy that I worked

for in Baton Rouge. He was came
from Mississippi Mom and Pop.

Guy who bought that station. He
bought an am when am radio was

big, but bought it like in the
late 50s, yeah, and that was the

they were the king of the world
in radio. Then he put an FM on

the air in 1969 that was, I
think, the second country FM in

the nation at the time, because
that was, that was new kind of,

you know, the FM radio to put a
country station on it. Most FM

stations, you know, were, like,
beautiful, you know, that's

Andre Castellon. It's another,
you know, all that beautiful

music stuff. But, but anyway, in
the back in the 50s, he owned

stations in Mississippi, and for
I think it was Elvis, like stood

him up or something for a
concert that they were doing. So

he consequently hated Elvis. And
if you played Elvis on the

station, you would get a big
time reprimand because he hated

Elvis, regardless of the fact
that Elvis was Elvis. Well,

yeah, you know, but yeah, you
couldn't play Elvis because he

was still, like, you know, 25
years later, still pissed at

Elvis because he stood him up at
a concert or

something. See, I never
understood that they when I

lived in Wichita, there was a
big station. There was kfdi, may

still be a big country. Oh yeah,
I used

to promote that station. Mike

oatman was the owner, and he Oh,
yes, I remember him. He did. A

dad hated Yeah. And Mike hated
my dad because they were, they

were really, I mean, they were,
they were basically fighting the

radio wars. But anyway, Mike
Oakman really made me mad one

day, because it was when Waylon
Jennings put out, are you ready

for the country? And he's
playing the song on the air, are

you ready for the country? And
it had a line in it, which I

thought, Man, that's a great
line. Said talking to a

preacher, said God was on his
side, talking to the pusher,

they both were selling high. And
I thought, Man, that's a great

line. Right after it plays, all
of a sudden you hear the record

come off. Mike says, We're not
playing that crap on the air

breaks the record on air. Said,
I don't care if it is Waylon

Jennings, we're not promoting
that kind of crap on this radio

station.

Well, you know, there are a lot
of stations that wouldn't play

John Denver's Rocky Mountain
High. It's true, because they

were taking that as some drug
thing. Well, it may have been,

yeah, you know, kind of, you
know, up for interpretation. I

was kind

of like Lucy in the Sky with
Diamonds, with the Beatles. The

LSD was actually a, you know,
John Lennon's kid brought home

this picture that he painted.
So, yeah,

I just made that correlation. I
can see that.

But you also we're talking about
meeting artists. I remember, as

I worked at kz country. It was
in Nashville, on Music Row. It's

where curb records is now, and
the studio that you broadcast

out of looked directly into the
newsroom, which they sometimes

use. As you know, they would do
celebrity interviews in there.

And my sister at the time, who
was also working at the station,

was doing a celebrity interview
for some I think syndicated

radio show with a Judd and Naomi
and Wynonna were there, and

Naomi was sitting right across
from me, where we could see each

other. Now, she never really
looked over at me, but I was

watching her, and the whole time
she and Winona had their

sunglasses on, which I found
kind of funny. I kept thinking,

why are you wearing sunglasses
inside? So I was wearing

contacts at the time, so I had
shades. I had some Ray Bans, so

I stuck my Ray Bans on and did
my show like that for a while,

waiting on Naomi to and finally
she did. She was looking she

looked over at me, and, I mean,
started smiling. I could tell

she was laughing. And they ended
up coming into the studio, and

she said, I had to come in and
introduce myself. She said, You

really had me laughing putting
your son classes.

I said, Well, I'm just having

you're making fun of me.

You know, the first time I met
her, I was working radio in

Baton Rouge, and she and in
Winona. Know as the Judds.

Nobody really knew who they were
just yet. I think they had just

put out their first first tune,
but they were opening for Willie

Nelson at a concert there and
and I was, I was emceeing the

concert, but anyway, backstage,
and I didn't really know who the

judge were either. Really. I'd
kind of heard of them from my

record rep with RCA the jack
Weston, but Winona is riding a

bicycle backstage in the halls.
Oh, wow. Of the LSU assembly

center is where the show was
taking place. So she's riding a

bicycle, and I see Winona
sitting in the dressing or,

pardon me, Naomi sitting in the
dressing room by herself, no

makeup on. And I was just struck
by how beautiful she was, very

beautiful woman. And I kind of
stuck my head in the anyway, I

sat and chatted with her. There
was nobody else in there, you

know. Again, they're just
starting out. So I guess the

entourage wasn't, you know,
quite there yet, right? You

know. But, yeah, just had the
nicest, warmest talk. You know,

Jim had mentioned, I believe
I'll tell that story, yeah, you

know what? We were off, off air
here, I guess you would call it

about his encounter with Naomi
and how nice she was. But, yeah,

just so down to earth and
friendly and but again, I was

just, I was like, I know my jaw
was dropping about how gorgeous

she was, but not without a
stitch of makeup on, you know,

yeah, natural beauty. Man, yeah,
yeah. But I'm guessing probably

Winona was, probably was like,
she was like, 1819, when they

started something like that. So,
yeah, pretty woman too. She was

just, oh yeah, they're very
pretty women. So, you know, she

was just a kid bouncing off the
walls, riding the bicycle

backstage. Man, it's crazy. So

tell us about your

so after the after my life in
radio, I got into the car

business. The funny thing about
the car business and radio,

whenever you tell people what
you do, they're always

fascinated. It's either a
fascination with what you do or

a hatred for what you do. Yeah,
I found that commonality with

both those Yes. You know what I
hate about car sales. Okay,

yeah, I get it. But I was
working at Mercedes Benz and

Cool Springs, and I had the
office right next to the side of

the building. So it was a
beautiful spring day. We had the

doors open, a nice breeze coming
through, and it wasn't uncommon

for people to to kind of jaunt
in and with their pets, or dogs

or something like that, on a
leash, you know, with

consideration. So I'm sitting
there at my desk at my computer,

looking, who else do I need to
call? I really, I really enjoyed

that job. And I stay out of my
peripheral. I see a little dog

walking in without a leash, and
I'm going, Are you kidding me?

Come on, man, and, you know,
following the dog was a woman,

and I'm looking at her, and I'm
tracking her, and she stops

right in front of my desk, and
I'm going get I'm going, Gosh,

she looks so you look so
familiar. She about faces, and

just turns right towards me, and
she goes, I'm looking for some

trucks. Okay, used pre owned,
you know, we got trucks. I mean,

Mercedes doesn't make trucks,
per se, we make SUVs. Yes, SUVs.

Okay, great. You know what? I
could be able to happy to help

you. As she comes walking over,
extends her hand, she goes, I'm

Ashley, that's who you are.
Okay, now I know yours. Ashley

Judd, yeah. And as we start
talking, and in walks Naomi and

her husband, whose name I get.
Remember, Larry street seems to

be the theme of the show today.

And she we went.

We went, we found a car, took a
test drive, and everything out

in the test drive, all four of
us went, and Naomi was just all

about me, just asking me, Well,
tell me about your family. Where

are you from? How What's your
wife do? Tell me about your

kids. How old are your kids?
Where do they go to? Just like

salesmanship. 101, yes, like
someone trained her. But I think

it was just innate in her to
just be curious about other

people, which I think made her
very endearing. And I think it

was a natural trait, yes, and
boy, what a what an impression

she made. And I'm like, I really
appreciate you. Ashley. Was

Ashley, uh, Naomi was was
amazing. Was absolutely amazing.

She was amazing. She made you
just love her.

I think that's one reason they
became so big. It wasn't just

winona's talent, which was
phenomenal. I mean, yeah,

Wynonna is great singer,

but you met Wynonna as well,
right? Yeah, I did. She's nice

as well.

She was nice. She was not. She
was a little smart alec, which

was fine, because I am too. But
I remember somebody on the staff

had put a penthouse. It was a
penthouse subscription card on

my console to be, you know,
smart a and I. I had forgotten

about it being there when they
came into the studio. Of course

there was and why, no one looks
over goes, Oh, penthouse,

yeah. Do you read it? Yeah? I
read it for the articles.

Yeah, I just read Yeah. I like,
I like the I like the forum.

But yeah, radio,

they're really huge articles.

Yes, big, big old, big old,

yeah. And I, yeah, I post those
I like, so I

like getting to the bottom of
the story. But anyway, you

know, we were talking earlier in
another episode about deaths

that affected people, yes. And
again, Naomi, Naomi, Judge well.

And again, the circumstances
that were indeed so

heartbreaking.

Well, suicide is always,

you know, my mother was the same
way suicide, if people really

knew what, how it affect. I
mean, you're not, you're not

solving a problem. You're
creating even more problems. I

mean, that that's what's so sad
about suicide, in such a way,

the permanent solution to a
timid, temporary problem,

exactly. Thing, you know, the
Robin Williams, Oh, yeah. But

anyway,

what was the song, country song,
back in oh five, it was, it was

kind of like a, I don't remember
the artist, but it was how it

was called, how do you get that
lonely? It was about suicide,

yeah, you know. But great song,
yeah, it was really good song.

And I can't remember the artist,
I'm sorry, guy names, yeah,

we're having a tough time today.
Yeah,

you had mentioned, like the
breaking the records, yes, and

it reminded me of, like, once
upon a time, how radio had such

power. It still does today. To a
certain extent, the record

industry, the music business,
really does depend on spins, as

it were. You know, even though
there's definitely a diminishing

audience and a fractured
attention span and listenership.

It reminded me of when I was in
Vegas, actually, shortly short,

shortly before I went there, I
was really fascinated with it,

and, oddly enough, ended up
working out there. But a buddy

of mine was programming kxte,
one Oh, 7.5 extreme radio out in

Las Vegas at the time, in 2000
and I remember reading it in a

trade papers this, this had come
out, and I think it even made

mainstream media when it came
out. Limp Bizkit was out

promoting their latest album
called the chocolate starfish

and the hot dog flavored water
metaphors. Apparently, they

decided they had a 21 city tour
in the US and Canada, and before

they went off to Japan. So they
decided to not play Vegas,

because they had an opportunity
to play somewhere else for more

money. So they basically flipped
off Vegas, yeah, when kxte

caught wind of it, and they
basically banned them from the

radio station because they
weren't they weren't going to

play Vegas and Dave Wellington,
who is the program director,

Beef Wellington, we call them,
yeah, he met, he made headlines.

And like, like, listeners were
out, you know, rolling the the

discs over with steam rollers
and all sorts of stuff. And it

was a big spectacle. Is amazing.
Wow, just the black eye those

guys got because of that

the Dixie Chicks,

oh, yeah, that was a big Yeah,
and they blamed radio, but

really, they blame but it wasn't
so much radio decided to do

that. It was the radio audience.
Yeah, because I was working at

we worked for Clear Channel at
the time. We were in talk right,

of course, with Phil and I
remember when that happened,

they were getting flooded
though. I mean, anytime they

played a Dixie chick song, the
audience, mean they they did not

want it. So that's why a lot of
those songs got pulled. It

wasn't radio's decision just
because of something. She said,

it was because of the audience
backlash. I always said Natalie

mains would have been a lot
better off, and people probably

would have thought, you know,
it's a lot different. You know,

if she had done that in Texas
somewhere, we people probably

go, man, that took some guts,

yeah? But you did it overseas.
They did it overseas.

Springsteen just did

it. Yeah, stupid. Well, and the
thing with her, that whole

thing, was she, she was trying
to win the audience back,

because the worst thing you can
do to a performer is boo. And

she said something about them
being from Texas as from why I

understand the concert and the
audience in England started

booing her, and that's when she
made that comment. And it was

like, you know, that was, um,
you didn't need to do that. You

did not need to do that. But
she, she paid for it, and the

and it's really a shame, because
the group was really good. I

thought I were Dixie Chicks. Put
out some great music. Same with

I love Steve Earl. He's one of
my favorite singer songwriters.

But sometimes that dude puts his

Yeah, but he, you know again,
knowing Steve again, going back

to my MCA Records days, he's one
of the artists I got to know

probably better than than
anyone. He's a likable guy. Oh,

Steve's a good dude, yeah, he
really is, you know, he has, he

has very strong political
leanings, far social, far left,

yeah, you know. But that is
never, you know, that's just

hasn't been anything that's come
up in our relationship, you

know? Well, it's so, yeah, but
in terms of his, you know, his

art, brilliant songwriter, you
know, admittedly, he can be kind

of an acquired taste, as far as
a performer goes, Yes, but Yeah,

but you're right. I mean, Steve
has said some things that I

don't think if he were trying to
go mainstream country, then

maybe some of his comments would
would be an issue for him. But

that's that's never been Steve.
Well,

no, and I don't think Steve
really cares. No, no. I think, I

think Steve looks at it like,
you know, hey, you either like

me or you don't, right if you
don't, yeah, I don't agree with

him. I don't even but I like a
lot of issues. Sure, I like his

music. And you know, the only
thing that I got tired of, as

far as is on stage stuff, was I
didn't mind the songs that, you

know, that he had, like the
revolution starts now, whatever

that was he wrote against George
W Bush, you know that that

didn't bother me. What bothered
me were the constant political

talks that he would do on stage,
yeah, yeah. He was like, I

didn't come to I want to escape
this. You know, he

will get to rambling about that,
yeah, on stage and yeah, I, you

know, back again when we were
trying to break him at MCA, we

had the he had a little bit of
baggage in terms of his music,

Because epic Sony tried to make
him

a rockabilly Yes. In fact, I was
one of the first DJs to play him

in this town and that and

that. First of all, that wasn't
Steve, no. It just it was all

wrong. But you know, when he
came over to MCA in the guitar

town album, oh, what a brilliant
wreck. But boy, talk about a

bear trying to get that on
radio. And that surprised me,

though. Well, I was, as I say, I
think there was some baggage

with that. Oh, that's that
rockabilly guy, right? And we

don't play the rockabilly guy.

Well, I gotta admit too when
that record came out, because

Steve had turned me off when I
first met him, because that was

when he was on CBS. He was doing
the rockabilly stuff, and the

program director didn't want to
talk to him, and so he said,

Would you mind doing I said, No,
I don't mind doing it, because I

like meeting new artists anyway,
and I really liked him at first.

I mean, we were getting along.
He was, I think he was with John

Lomax at the time. Yeah, that's
it. Was your manager. Yep, I

believe you're right. And they
were both real nice, and I

really enjoyed talking to them.
But Steve's demeanor changed

when I said, Well, what are you
doing? What kind of music is

this? He's because I didn't hear
the record. He goes, Well, I'm

doing rockabilly. And at the
time, I was, you know, trying to

be an artist, too. And they told
me that, oh, that sounds

rockabilly. I said, Well, it's
interesting, because that's what

somebody said my record sounded
like. And for some reason that

turned him. He got, all of a
sudden, it just changed. He was

real standoffish and acted like
he wanted to get out of there.

And I thought, Well, I'm sorry.
I said, So when my wife went to

get my wife, at the time, went
to go buy guitar town, I said,

Well, you're going on your own.
I said, I'm not going in there.

I don't want to be seen buying
that. Because I remembered that.

Yeah, yeah. But then when she
brought it home, I was like,

Man, this guy, this record is
phenomenal, yeah, and I really

fell in love with his music.
Well,

hillbilly highway was the first
single off that album, and it

didn't, I don't know. I think he
may have gotten to the 30s,

maybe, yeah, it

didn't go far, yeah, which is a
shame. It's a great song.

But then you know that, but
that, that fat Duane Eddy

guitar, yeah, you know that. I
don't know if that was a Tony

brown idea. Who produced that
album, but that was Richard

Bennett, yeah. Richard Bennett,
yeah. I mean, he's the one that

was playing that guitar, yeah,
but I was working non reporters.

At the time, you know, back
then, you know, well, I say non

reporters, stations that did not
report to billboard or R and R,

which was radio and records,
which is no longer around. But

if you were in R and

R, which meant, essentially a
radio station could pick its own

playlist, pretty much, yeah,

yeah. So R and R and billboard
reporters. I was, I was calling

at the time cash box and Gavin
report stations and big stations

that didn't report to anybody.
And I was starting the reporters

at the time were just blowing
him off. They were not playing

Steve Earle, right? But I
started getting traction with

those non reporters, the Gavins
that in the Rust Belt, in Ohio,

in Pennsylvania, West Virginia.
And finally, the big stations

were telling their record rep,
their MCA guy that was calling

them, who was Bill catino At
that time, I'm getting calls for

this Steve Earl guy, who? So?
Who is he? Now, you know? So

that is what started to get the
traction for guitar town, yeah.

And ultimately, that was a
number one album. Oh, but boy,

it took a lot of work, a lot of
work to get

there, unless you had people
that worked at that label,

unlike you, that were not behind
him at all. No,

you know, that's a shame,
because it's not a priority in a

lot of people's minds.

See, to me, that record really,
I mean, I never wanted to pick

the guitar up again. I thought,
boy, this guy is phenomenal. And

in the next record, exit zero, I
really fell in love with I was

working at a my father and I got
involved in a small station

happened to be in Fairview,
Tennessee, and I didn't know at

the time Steve lived there,
yeah, yes, right. And so I got,

really, got into that record.
And then he came out with

Copperhead road, and I remember
I was the only one out of all of

us there that liked it.
Everybody else was, oh, man,

he's gone way too far now. And
my father and I had a bet. I

said, I bet you the album at
least, will go top 10 in the

country charts. He said, you're
on and and I said, if it wins, I

want to play the album in its
entirety on the station, because

I love the guy so much. And sure
enough, it went to number seven.

Went to number seven. I went
into the girl that was playing

music, and I said, I want you to
play this album. It's an

entirety. And she said, Really,
yes,

well, I have to tell you my
first experience in hearing

Copperhead road by Steve Earle.
He was and I don't know who did

this or how it came about. But
he was asked, I guess, to

perform at a meeting reception
party, whatever it was for Fifth

Third Bank downtown Nashville.
Perfect, Fifth Third Bank

downtown Nashville. I went with
him to that. I helped him. I

mean, it was just him and his
guitar, yeah. And nobody really

knew, you know, right, who the
heck he was. But, yeah, here he

is playing for all these bankers
at this, you know, kind of

hoity, toity. So the interest
rates are up 3.5 you know, like

that with their cocktail
glasses. Yeah, stuff. Well, you

know, Steve's playing his stuff,
and nobody's really paying all

that much attention to him,
quite frankly, but he mentions,

well, here's a new tune that
I've not really played for

anybody in public. But since
ain't, nobody paying any

attention anyway, what the hell?
So he pulls out his mandolin,

yes, and starts playing that
intro to to Copperhead Road,

yes. And he is just really
starting to just, you could tell

he was kind of pissed. Anyway,
yeah. So he was really letting

out his angst and kind of
discuss for all of these

capitalists,

well, and plus, plus, the way he
played a mandolin. It wasn't

like you hear with the real
gentle, no, no. He plays it more

percussive. I mean, absolutely,
yeah.

So he is just really starting to
get going. And, of course, he

wears those bandanas on his
wrist, yes, and the bandanas

were already kind of sweaty, so
there's just like sweat and spit

flying everywhere. And he's
just, well, my name's John Lee

patter, you know, just really
getting it going. And finally,

though, the. Those capitalist
bankers finally stopped and just

stood there and took notice,
yes, of the song. And I thought

it was such a great song. And,
of course, it is, I mean, the

story that tells, oh, it's,
it's, I remember, just

brilliant.

Well, the first time I heard it
was in, it was at Douglas corner

when it was still here, yeah,
and Steve was just by himself.

He was doing like an acoustic
show, and all of a sudden he

brings out this kick drum and
his mandolin and starts playing

this song. And I am mesmerized.
I'm thinking, Man, this is a

great song. And then the next
time I hear it, he's doing a

show at War Memorial Auditorium
with Roseanne cash and Rodney

Crowell and Steve was the
opener, and that was a big

mistake, I thought, because as
much as I love Rodney Crowell

and Roseanne cash, Steve blew
them both off the stage, yeah,

and he did Copperhead road that
night, and it had not come out

yet, and it had the full band
this time. My gosh, the way that

that place came alive with that
song. And I thought that song is

going to

be huge. Well, after Steve did
it for those bankers, he

actually got applause, you know,
great song just kind of stopped

and like, What's this guy doing?
You know, he got their

attention. Oh, yeah, it was a
cool moment.

Well, I'll tell one more Steve
Earl story, because we don't

want to make this the Steve
Earle hour, but Steve was on

Phil show one time, Bill
Valentine. Now, of course,

they're, they're, they're
politically opposite,

metrically, except for one area.
Phil was not for the death

penalty. And that's what Steve
was doing. He was doing a

concert. It was an anti death
penalty concert, and I asked

Phil if he'd like to have him
on. He said, Well, you know, you

like his music. I kind of dig
his music. He said, Yeah. He

said, Let's have him on. So
Steve gets to the station early,

and I see him out in the lobby,
so I decided to go out and talk

to him. And we had great talk.
We talked country music, we

talked all kinds of stuff. And I
thought, well, this is going to

be a great interview. And I
said, so I told Steve. I said,

Well, I gotta get back in, get
ready for the show. But I said,

even though you and Phil are
politically opposed, I said, you

do have a common, common theme
with this. I said he believes,

as you do, not quite like you
do, but he's not for the death

penalty either. And he goes, Oh,
I know he's going to ambush me.

I said, No, man, he's going to
be good to you. I said he didn't

ambush anybody. And that
interview started a real

contention between Phil
Valentine and Steve Earle. In

fact, Phil is in this movie that
this guy did on Steve Earle

called just an American boy, and
they're talking about the it's

all about when he had that song
out John Walker's blues. And

there's a clip of Phil on Fox
News going it's the worst song

I've ever heard. But when Steve
went into the interview, he was

very contentious with Phil, and
wasn't very nice, right? And

Phil was being really and after
that interview, Phil said, what

a butthole. He said, I'll never
be nice to him again, which is

sad, because Steve's really a
good guy. He is, he is, and Phil

was, too. It's a shame they
couldn't find a common ground,

which there was, you know, so
that's right, I gotta tell you a

great Phil Valentine's story,
since we're telling radio

stories here,

but Excuse me, but Phil,

when we started on W, L, A, C,
was notorious for coming in just

in time. Yeah, a lot of, lot of
guys like that. Well, he

usually, he would be coming in
as the theme music was playing.

This is how it usually went to
everything. The whole news part

was over. The weather was over.
All of a sudden it's pow done.

You know, the Eddie money song
they used another, I think, is

what another day in LA, I think
was the name of the song. But

anyway, the song's going,
there's no Phil. All of a

sudden, in comes Phil Valentine.
He puts the briefcase down, pops

it open, gets his earphones out,
waves to me, how you doing? You

know, the program director is
going out of his mind cussing me

out. Where is he? Where is he?
Puts the earphones on, boom,

there he is. And there's only
one time, and I think this, I

think this was the end of the
days when he would cut it so

close. There was one day that
traffic was really bad and he

didn't make it in on time. And
he called me on the phone and

did part of the open on the
phone. Very cool, very cool.

Those

things happen in radio.

Yeah, they do. Radio is a I miss
the days of the old, you know

when, when you were talking
about, like mom and pops? Yeah,

that was fun. I mean, you know

the person, the family, or the
person, or whatever that owned

the place was in the corner
office. Oh, yeah, you saw them

every day. Yeah? Not like, now,
when you really don't know who

the hell owns this, I don't
really know, yeah, well, it's

like, well, even the the general
managers, the general manager of

the last radio station I worked
at. I probably only saw her. I

can count on my hand, yeah,
probably how many times drew as

well. I've seen her in this
station, you know. Well, you

know,

back then, those stations had
staffs, you know, there were,

you know, there was somebody
that wrote the copy for the

commercials. There was, you
know, two or three people that

were in the production
department, oh, yeah, news

department, you know, now
there's, you know, there's

nobody

there. Well, there was
camaraderie. I mean, I remember

we used to when I worked at
radio station here in Nashville.

It was in Madison. It used to
be, we know it, oh, W, J, R, B,

W, E, M, O, but we would go out,
and we'd go out drinking

together whatever, or have
dinner together. It's far

different now. It's more like
now, like in the last radio

station I was in, they, they,
you know, sales was downstairs,

programming was

upstairs. You never see anybody,
no, well, you

know, that's probably a good
thing.

Well, I'll admit, you know,

I'm with a station here in town
now, and I I been there three

years, and, you know, I see
people in the hall is kind of

like, Hi, how you doing? Right?
I have no idea who these people

are, that and I know their sales
or there's something I don't

know. Maybe it's incumbent upon
me to go, Hi, I'm Jay. And you

know, maybe

are the sales staff still like
staffed to the fullest extent?

Are they dwindling too?

That's a good question. That is
good question. I'm I don't

really know. I do know that what
you know, the thing about radio

now is, and you know, we've seen
the sales, the income results

for iHeart and cumulus just came
out here in the last week or so.

And you know, radio revenue is
down, but digital revenue is up.

The podcasts are up. Yeah, as
these stations go to more of the

of the digital footprint,

something they should have done
15 years ago, but whatever.

Yeah.

So, you know, these
conglomerates, I mean, they're

they're catching on in realizing
that they're going to have to

diversify their their platforms,
and not just rely on the

transmitter.

Well, you know, what's sad to
me, though, in a way, is that I

miss the old days of radio when
it was theater of the mind,

because I think a lot of I was
telling somebody in radio, this

may have been, you Jay, where I
said, you know, I know it was.

It was producer of Michael del
giorno show,

and was his name, Jim?

Maybe Chris, no, Chris No, but
you know his name is Jeff. Great

talent. Great radio talent,
actually. But I was telling

Jeff, I said, you know, if, if
the Phil Valentine show had come

around now, I said, I doubt we'd
be able to do dancing in the

booth, or, you know, the other
things like snowflake, or any of

the other thing, because Phil
was such a genius at theater of

the mind, and that's why I
really miss about radio today,

is the theater of the mind
stuff, because now you're on

camera, and it's a lot
different. I mean, it's it's

changed, and I'm not saying it's
changed for the worse. It's just

for me, I miss that theater of
the mind when I didn't know who

the guy I didn't know what the
guy looked like, I didn't know

what the girl looked like. You
know, there were times when

you'd hear a girl on the radio
and you'd think, wow, I bet

she's hot. And then you'd, well,
that's about anybody radio. We

all had faces for radio.

Hey, we're gonna be live over
here at the Woolworth come meet

us.

I met a guy at a function we had
at WT n, it was for a Dave

Ramsey, when Dave was on there.
And this guy comes up to me, and

he goes, You're Johnny B I went,
Yes, sir, I am. He goes, You're

not what I expected. And I said,
well. You're not what I

expected, either. And he got
mad. I was like, well, you

started Italian radio

people that are fascinated, or
they something they don't like

about you. Or

there was a woman one time that
came up to me. It was at a UT

thing that WAC was doing, and
this woman comes up to me and

asks if it was me. And I said,
Yeah. She goes, Are you Johnny?

I pictured you being fat like
Rush Limbaugh

I'm working on I

remember we had Dr Laura on our
station in Vegas, and you all I

ever saw of her were the
pictures we had on the walls and

stuff like that. So it was the
first time ever, I thought, time

I ever I thought there was other
pictures that came out maybe,

but she came into the station to
do her show one time, and she

was walking down the hall and it
was like, oh my, wow. The

Photoshop wasn't invented yet.
Like, that's a lot of Vaseline

on the lens. I mean, like a
leather handbag, yeah. I mean,

my good and she was, she was
cordial, she was nice. And it's

funny about these people when
you come across, especially like

talk show hosts, yes, Phil, I
think, was always on, you know,

I'm from what I know of him. He
was always kind of like, you

know, you knew more intimately.
But a lot of these people I met,

you know, I worked with Sean
Hannity and Dr Laura Tom Lycus

came in one time and did his
show off the air. They're

completely different. Well, I
always heard that about rush

Howard, the same thing. Yeah,
he's a very shy, introverted guy

and, you know, very appreciative
of people. But once that mic

turns on, he becomes the
character, yeah, the acerbic,

yeah.

I think that's way Rush was too.
I asked people that met rush

what he was like off, and they
said, man, very shy guy, yeah,

very kind of withdrawn. I'm
really disappointed in Howard

Stern. I used to really like how

we're talking we're talking
about deaths in the previous

episode, and we forgot to
mention his, uh, career,

yeah, it's, it's well. And what

really turned me against him was
when Phil died of covid, with

every two other talk show hosts
died about the same time. And

Howard Stern was asked about it,
and his reply was good. And I

thought, yeah, what a horrible,
what a horrible, yeah. I thought

you were better than that. And
ever since then, I just, and

then, when he went real woke, I
just thought

he became the exact kind of
person that he used to make fun

of, yeah, yeah.

Well, I understand too, is, I
think they said, ever since he

married his new

he became bougie, yeah? Well,

they said he's also a lot of his
workers have said, the people

that work with him have said
that he really relishes being

fond over by celebrities. He
wants to be invited to celebrity

parties, what he always wanted.
And that's what he's playing to

basically, totally and when you
do that, it's over. I mean, he

may as well if you're not
playing to that audience in

front of you. Yeah.

Well, you know, apparently he
and Donald Trump were big

buddies. There were times Trump
was on his show a lot

and, well, even David Letterman
and David Letterman used to have

Trump on all the

time. Stick your flag in the
soil, man, and you draw a line

in the sand, that you're gonna
polarize people well.

And it's like we were talking
about Steve Earle, Dixie,

chicks, folks like that. You
know, if you get political, it's

like a, I had a an artist. Tell
me, I won't say who it was, but

they were working one of these
cruise ships, and they said

there was an artist that went on
stage and started blasting

Barack Obama, who was it
president at the time? And they

said the audience walked out on
the next night, another artist

came on and was knocking Donald
Trump and said the audience once

again walked out. You're either
going to, if you get, if you

step into the political fray, if
you're a recording artist, I

think you're going to end up,
you're going to lose half your

audience.

Well, you know, you look at what
Al Dean did with try that in a

small town, he's unapologetic
about it, even to the point

where it spurred off a podcast,
which is the one I produced.

Yes, what drew me to that was I
know those guys. I know you

know, Kurt and Tully through my
relationship with rich, but the

other two guys, kalo and Neil,
who are their other songwriters,

are also legendary songwriters
here in town. But yeah, man, I

said I am really intrigued by
the fact that you guys are doing

this because it's a risk. It's a
very left leaning town.

And yeah, well, especially now
that music business, and in

fact, you have. Had when you
were on the radio, you had an

artist on that was talking about
how music row has changed. Yes,

not Darrell Worley, yeah, it's
not. It's not like Daryl Worley

is a

great guy, yeah, with a podcast,
by the way, yeah, yes, he does,

yes, he does. Yeah. We're going
to try to game on. Yeah. I think

we can get it.

I think so too. But I think
that's the, I mean, I don't mind

a song, you know, like I was
talking about Steve, I didn't

mind hearing songs in concert
that I could tell were left

leaning. But it's the, it's the
when you start grandstand, when

you start making speeches,
political speeches, on stage,

and you're an artist. You mean,
it's done.

I mean, you know, you go back to
the Merle Haggard days, yes,

during the Vietnam War, you
know, fight inside of me. Yeah,

some of these that were deemed
to be okie from Muskogee deemed

to be kind of almost right,
right wing, conservative but

that's not who Haggard was. No,
he was not, you know, he was

more left leaning, yeah, he was
in in terms of his political

stance, yeah. But he certainly
had, you know, kind of made the,

you know, planted his flag in
the sand, if you will, on on the

kind of conservative side.

Well, even Johnny Cash. A lot of
people thought Johnny Cash was

conservative. He wasn't really.
He was very, very fact. He was

very Al Gore. He wanted Al Gore
to he Oh, yeah,

but yeah. But, you know, you can
be patriotic, yes, without being

conservative. You know? I mean
the Johnny Cash with the rugged,

old flag, yeah, ragged old flag.
It old flag, yeah, you know, and

that, that is just a
masterpiece.

Well, if you've ever seen the
there's a, I think you can see

it on to be maybe, but it's a
highway men in concert, and

Johnny Cash does ragged, old
flag, and he said, he said, I'm

proud to be from a country that
will allow somebody to burn the

flag. He said that, you know, in
the audience really didn't do

much to that, but he says, I'm
also proud to be from a country

that if you burn my flag, I've
got the right to shoot you.

That's right there. Joe, but,

yeah, radio, back to radio. It's
changed a lot. It had to. And in

fact, as you pointed out, they
were late to the they were very

late.

They're little, they're
laggards. I mean, it's, you

know, and it's to be fair. You
know, you have to, obviously

nurture your revenue stream,
where it comes from, make sure

that's that's happening. But,
you know, it was kind of a catch

22 you know, to kind of be a
very, you know, devil's advocate

approach to this is, I we get
it, you know, you know where

you're, where you're, where your
bills are being paid, right? But

to kind of all of a sudden try
and pivot. But, I mean, I don't

think anybody could really see
how fast this pivoted. And I was

actually gonna say maybe for
another episode, do a topic on a

radio guys perspective on
podcasters. Yeah, really good

topic, you know. But basically,
it's just amazing to me that

podcasting kind of did come up
right around Oh 708, and I think

podcasting is the big thorn in
the side of radio right now. It

certainly has been, you know,
with all the different digital

offerings in Oh 708, it kind of
it crested and then went away,

but it came back with a force
in, like, 2014 2015

it did, you know, and you know,
I totally like in my situation.

I think I've even told you this
the time you interviewed me on

your podcast, I totally got why
I was let go, and that's why I

didn't take it as personally as
some people did. I understand

there are still some audience
members that, oh yeah, yeah,

which I appreciate. Don't get me
wrong, I appreciate that

loyalty, but I totally got while
I because I think they were

want, Phil is gone, the
station's going to have to

change to stay alive. And I
totally got why they did what

they did because they wanted.
That they have to change. You

have to change or you're not
going to stay alive. And I

totally got it. Didn't take it
personally. The only thing I

took personally was the way they
did it, yeah, and that's, that's

kind of I would have rather had
a face to face, yeah, you

deserve that, rather than a
that's the only thing I had

against the whole firing was the
was the, you know, doing it by

computer on at home when I was
just there, just like an hour or

two before, where you could have
called me into an office and

said goodbye, and maybe they
were afraid. Maybe I have an

image of, oh, he might, you
know, he'll. Will. He'll get

violent. He'll, oh, yeah, that's
you. You know, that's me, but,

yeah, I wish it had been done
that way. But I have to say,

though, the program director,
Paul, fantastic about it. I

mean, he was a gentleman, and
even called me later, just check

on your Yeah, he did. He said, I
just want to make sure your

eyes, man, I'm cool. And he
said, Well, be sure to sign your

I said, signed and done. He
said, already that's yes, it's

done.

John, you know, as you've told
me, yeah, you know that whole

thing going down. Certainly,
while you don't take it

personally, it still hurts after
invest, sure, after investing a

couple of decades, and your
passion, you know, but, but

you've told me that you've,
you've actually felt lighter,

though, that it was a relief in
one respect. Well, it

was, I remember the day it
happened, my wife, you know, we

were on the front porch, and we
were talking about it, and she's

sitting there bawling, you know,
she's crying, and she goes, Why

are you not more upset? And I
said, Because I'm free. Yeah,

you know, now I can, now I can
kind of do some things I've

wanted to do. I'm I'm not. And
to be honest, as much as I love

Radio, I'm not a big fan of the
corporations that own them.

That's nothing against those
corporations, but it's just not

the radio that I grew to love,
right? That's not the radio that

I love, and I have to tell you,
and I thank you for this, is

that that's why I love this. I
love podcasting, Jim, because

you're right. It's, it's, it's
the future. You're still needed,

man. And the thing is, Phil
Valentine, before he died, I

think Phil was going to leave
radio. I really do. I think he

had had his fill of it, and he
had talked to me. He he wanted

to, he wanted to start a podcast
network of his own. And I think

he wanted to, he said he wanted
me to do one on music. He said,

I think he'd be great at that.
He said, that's your future. I

think he wanted to do one for
Pamela fur. He really loved her

and believed in her. And so I
think that's the route he was

going anyway. And so this just
seemed a logical way to go. And

I appreciate you for for, you
know, inspiring me to do this.

Very welcome. You know, it's
like when you believe in

somewhat what somebody is doing.
That's the thing is that I think

a lot of people see what I or
hear what I say. They think I'm

throwing shade on on radio. I'm
not. I'm throwing, I'm throwing

shade on the ownership groups,
the people that didn't pivot

hard enough. It's like you're
supposed to be a creative

supposed to be a creative
industry. Be creative. Yes,

that's what's missing. And, and,
you know, excuse me, you're

getting your butt kicked by
people that are in rooms like

this, yes, that are building
massive audiences. Joe Rogan's

audiences. You Who would have
thought that, right? Who would

have thought that? But he
started, no seven. Yeah, he did.

He started podcast.

Yeah, he got in there early.
Well, I mean, I just saw where,

you know, Taylor Swift on the
podcast, new heights. What was

it? 10 million, 10 million
viewers on the podcast with the,

with the Kelsey folks. And
that's the new heights

broadcast, so, you know. And of
course, announcing her new

album, which is going crazy so
you know, she's not out there

promoting her album on radio.
She promotes it on a 10 million

viewed podcast. And that crazy
is that, of course, you know,

that's another level, you know,
but nonetheless, it does show

you the power, yeah,

how things are changing, right?

And I think I'll make a
prediction a lot of the artists,

especially, you know, there's,
you know, if you're an A list

country artist, it's about a 20
year run, right, right? Some

people are the exception to the
rule. But I will make a

prediction that a lot of the
artists that you know I've kind

of done the thing that you know.
John Rich has done the thing

right? He's toured, he's been an
artist and everything. He's more

of a pontificator Now, political
commentator, they're gonna start

turning towards podcasting. I
think you see a lot more artist

driven podcasts, and when that
happens, it's your show.co. Is

the place to go.

Well, I gotta hand it to Dan
manges and Chris and it station.

I used to work at WT, and
they've got a great podcast,

right? And Matt Murphy and Matt
Murphy, Cam Smith, or Yes, so, I

mean, so that's, that's what's
happening with your with your

radio personalities now is that
they have their own

podcast so we're not
broadcasters anymore. We're

podcasters, and that's why we
want you to return to circling

the drain, because it'll be back
and we'll have a great show

lined up for you with Jay Harper
and, of course, old Chris. You.

Here me. Chris. Jim McCarthy,

Jimmy Chris McCarthy.

Jimmy Z, now. Johnny B, we
appreciate you joining us on

circling the DRE you.